Hello - I just came across this forum on Bulova watches and hope someone can help me solve a mystery,
I found this entry on Wikipedia regarding watches worn by astronauts on the moon:
In 1971, Apollo 15 commander David Scott's issued Speedmaster lost its Plexiglas crystal during EVA-2. For EVA-3, the final lunar surface EVA, In a 2011 interview, Colonel Scott stated that he wore a Bulova Chronograph watch, model number 88510/01, NASA Part Number SEB12100030-202 that he had agreed to evaluate for the company. Because of the commercial interests involved and the revelation of the Apollo 15 postage stamp incident, NASA withheld Bulova's name for years afterward. Therefore, while the Speedmaster was the first watch worn on the moon, it is not the only one, as Omega often claims on its watches and in marketing materials.
My question is, which Bulova watch would have been identified as "88510/01" ??? Since it is comparable to an Omega Speedmaster, I presume this is a manual wind Valjoux chronograph which Bulova made around 1970. Does that model number match anything anyone is aware of ??
Thank you
-Robert
It wasn't a Wristwatch, the Chrono was a Stopwatch.
http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1955-sportstimer-2443
enjoy the read...
Actually it was both the stopwatch AND a chronograph. The stopwatch was used INSIDE the spacecraft during earth to moon engine burns. The watch was actually used on the lunar surface when the Speedmaster lost its crystal as described above. Dave Scott auctioned the stopwatch a few years ago and still owns the watch, but no picture has ever been released of it, thus my question. Thanks.
Here is a quote from the gentleman who actually owns the Stopwatch: " The watch has been (and still is) stored away in a safety deposit box. Dave retrieved the stopwatch for auction and found that both the stopwatch and the chronograph were made by Bulova." So does the number 88510/01 correspond to any known Bulova wristwatch?
This would be the first I have heard of a Wristwatch, from where are You receiving the information?
Quote from Paul Fraser Collectibles, link above.
"The specialised timepiece was not only carried to the lunar surface and back, but was also used to time the duration of the mission's critical Descent Orbit Insertion (DOI) manoeuvre, which had to be terminated within exactly 0.3 seconds to ensure that Falcon didn't crash into the Moon"
and:
No mention of the Omega losing a Crystal:
"It was feared that Scott's standard-issue Omega Speedmaster watch wouldn't be up to the job, so this Bulova stopwatch was obtained from the manufacturer via a friend of Scott's. With its bright, clear dial and large plungers and crowns the watch proved well suited to the job."
?
In reply to Scott's crystal blew out on by Reverend Rob
The information I posted above is from Wikipedia, but more recently, the gentleman who purchased the Stopwatch at Bonhams discussed above has also posted the information about the wristwatch being in Dave Scott's safe deposit box. It also describes how he was approached by Bulova in the first place to fly the stopwatch and chronograph. It is on a website called "Collectspace" and here is the link to the postings if you want to read more.
The Astronauts often had their own backup watches with them, a fact mentioned by both Aldrin and Armstrong.
I'm betting the watch would more likely have been a Deep Sea, because of the pressure rating. This is the link to the Wiki info, also mentions the Bulova watch:
The Deep Sea was my 1st thought, but it also could have been a prototype watch that tested the new 14EFAD movement like the one that Mr. Baker has posted here...88510/01 does not sound like a production model number, they were just 3 or 5 digits in the catalogs and on the hang tags and I don't ever remember seeing one start higher than 4xxxx.
This is a neat mystery to speculate on, but hopfully Mr. Scott will eventually come forward and resolve it.
A very cool watch, and the first of the Auto chronos, a joint venture by Hamilton/Buren, Heuer, and Breitling. A Dubois-Depraz chronograph module on the Buren 1281. Hamilton liked the Buren company so much, they bought them out.
Being so new, it may not have been first choice to be tested as a flight watch. The micro-rotor needs a bit more movement than regular automatics, and the astronauts would have been sitting still for long periods. Still, it could be hand wound for more power reserve, but I wonder if they wouldn't have kept things simple with a similar manual Swiss chronograph like the Omega, a Piguet design.
In reply to A very cool watch, and the by Reverend Rob
Q: How do You activate a Wristwatch size Chronograph on the Lunar surface while wearing a pressurized Space suit?
A: You don't.
One of the many fears were a puncture, rip or tear in the material and the Gloves worn weren't exactly designed for precision.
Sorry, it's a nice story but a bullshit story that makes absolutely no sense.
Welcome to the Internet....
In reply to Q: How do You activate a by FifthAvenueRes…
In reply to Q: How do You activate a by FifthAvenueRes…
In reply to Q: How do You activate a by FifthAvenueRes…
Indeed every Apollo astronaut on the lunar surface wore the Omega Speedmaster on their spacesuited arm using an extra long black velcro strap that you see on Buzz Aldrin's right arm just above his glove in the photo above. The watch was used as a timer, not to tell time of course! It was important for the astronauts to know the elapsed time from when they pressurized their suit inside the cabin before they egressed to the surface since there was less than 8 hours of oxygen on their back to last the entire spacewalk. The watch was started while they were still inside the cabin, thus there was no need to adjust anything on the watch while they were on the surface with gloves on their hand. In the case of Dave Scott, his Speedmaster's crystal popped off during his second moonwalk on Apollo 15. Prior to his egress for his final third moonwalk, he attached the Bulova Chronograph on the strap in place of the Speedmaster. Below is the only photo we have of him wearing that watch on that third moonwalk (his left arm)- hopefully with the help of people on this forum, we can narrow down which Bulova it was based on the limited information we have.
I hope my explanation makes sense to you!
Thank you to everyone here who has posted info!
In reply to Indeed every Apollo astronaut by astronut
In reply to Indeed every Apollo astronaut by astronut
1970/71 Bulova Chonos we have on site:
- Chronograph 'C'
- Unknown Chronograph
- Unknown Chronograph
- Deep Sea Chronograph
- Deep Sea Chronograph
- Unknown Chronograph
- Deep Sea Chronograph
- Deep Sea Chronograph
Chronograph 'C' is the only round case chronograph that appears to match the above photo in size, shape and dial color. The more I look at the photo, if it is a Bulova Chrono, then I would say it's a Chrono 'C".
In reply to Indeed every Apollo astronaut by astronut
Not sure about the pressure aspect, but in looking at the half dozen chrono's we have identified so far on site (that fit the era) the only one with the large sub-second markers is the Chrono 'C', all others don't have sub-second markets or are very small.
I'd like to think it was a Chrono 'C', but hey that's just me because I own one :-)
In reply to Not sure about the pressure by mybulova_admin
In reply to Can you please tell me the by astronut
In reply to Distance from outer edge to by mybulova_admin
Found this wonder bit of information.
Donald K. Slayton, head of the flight Crew Operations, took action to select the chronographs :
For the purpose of comparison tests, NASA purchased chronographs different brands from Corrigan's, a large retailer in Houston, Texas the following watches where purchased : Elgin, Benrus, Hamilton, Mido, Piccard, Omega, Bulova, Rolex, Longine and Gruen. Of theses only 3 where selected for the comparative evaluation testing :
Longines, Omega and Rolex (Omega movement : Omega 321 , Rolex movement : Valjoux 72 , Longines : Longines 13 ZN)
1965 first qualification program :
Model tested : probably 105.012 no documents found for the moment to firmly state this , but for sure a Speedmaster equiped with Omega 321 caliber
High temperature: 48 hours at 71º C followed by 30 minutes at 93º C. This under a pressure of 0,35atm and relative humidity not over 15%.
Low temperature: Four hours at -18º C.
Temperature-pressure: 0,000001atm and temperature raised to 71º C. Temperature then lowered to -18º C in 45 minutes and again raised to 71º C in 45 minutes. This cycle was repeated fifteen times.
Relative humidity: 240 hours in relatuve humidity of at least 95% and at temperatures varying between 20º C and 71º C. The steam had a pH value of between 6,5 and 7,5.
Oxygen atmosphere: Exposure to 100% oxygen atmosphere at a pressure of 0,35atm and a temperature of 71º C for 48 hours.
Shock: Six 11 millisecond shocks of 40g each in six different directions.
Acceleration: Linear acceleration from 1g to 7,25g within 333 seconds.
Decompression: 90 minutes in a vaccum of 0 10-6 atm and a temperature of 71º C and 30 minutes in the same vaccum but at a temperature of 93ºC.
High pressure: Exposure to 1,6atm for one hour.
Vibration: Three cycles of 30 minutes (lateral, horizontal and vertical), the frequency varying from 5 to 2000cps and back to 5cps in 15 minutes. Average acceleration per impulse 8,8g.
Acoustic noise: 130dB over a frequency range from 40 to 10000Hz for 30 minutes
Results of the tests :
Omega Speedmaster : gained 21 minutes during decompression test and lost 15 minutes during the acceleration test , the luminescence of the dial was lost during the test
Rolex Daytona : stopped running on two occasions during the relative humidity test and during the high pressure test when the sweep second hand wraped and press against the other hands
Longine Wittnauer : Crystal warped and disengaged during the high pressure test , same fault occured during the decompression test
Final conclusion : the Omega chronograph performmed satisfactorily
In 1965, NASA chose the Omega Speedmaster Professional as the official chronograph for the space program.
With the first Gemini flight (GT3) with astronauts Grissom and Young, the Speedmaster Professional became part of the standard equipment issued to the astronauts. The watch was worn on the outside of the pressure suit with the use of a large black velcro band.
The Speedmaster was worn during the first walk in space by an American, Edward White, in 1965. Two speedmasters were worn by each Gemini astronaut one set on mission time , the other one on GMT or Huston time.
1972 qualification tests :
Omega Model tested : 145.022 according Omega
1. Vacuum testing
The chronograph shall be subjected to a vacuum of 1x10-6 Torr or better for a total of 72 hours. During the first 10 hours of testing the temperature of the items shall be increased to 160 (+/-10) degrees F. The temperature shall then be returned to 78 (+/-10) degrees F for the remainder of the test.
2. Oxygen Atmosphere/Temperature Test
The test items shall be placed in atmosphere of 95 +/-5 percent oxygen at a pressure of 5+/-0.1 psia and a temperature of 155 +/-5 degrees F for 72 hours. Gas samples extracted from the chamber area shall be analyzed for organic and CO content per test number 6 of D-NA-0002.
3. Low Temperature
The test items shall be lowered to 0 +/- 5 degrees F. This temperature shall be maintained for 10 +/-0.5 hours. The test items shall be allowed to return to ambient before functional testing.
4. Acceleration
The test items shall be subjected to 20's +/- 2 g's in each direction of the three (3) perpendicular axes.
5. Random Vibration
The test items shall be installed in a fixture and submitted to 7.8 g's RMS for 5 +/-0.1 minutes, as defined in figure 2 in each of 3 axes. The test fixture with the test items shall then be submitted to 3.2 g's for 12 +/-0.1 minutes as defined in figure 1, in each of the 3 axes [Eds. Note: Figures not provided].
6. EMI Test
The test items shall be subjected to all applicable requirements of Mil-STD-461A, if an electromechanical movement is employed.
7. Humidity Testing
The test items shall be submitted to a humidity test per MIL-STD-810B, Method 507, Procedure I, except minimum temperature shall be 68 deg F and maximum temperature shall be 120 deg F.
Results of the tests :
During humidity test the bulova watch stopped three times, and stopped again during the acceleration test. According to the criteria, it must be conclued that the Bulova chronograph is not appropriate for the Apollo missions.
__________________________________________________ _______________
1978 qualification tests :
The topic of astronaut timepieces was quiet for several years until 1976 when Bulova became interested in supplying time pieces for the Space Shuttle missions.
Once again, NASA initiated a competetive solicitation. A new deadline was extended several times so Bulova could participate.
In September 1978, astronaut chronograph watches wishing to be considered for the space shuttle program underwent yet another round of prescribed space flight environmental testing.
This included:
Vacuum
Low temperature
Pressure
Vibration
Acceleration
Salt-fog
Humidity
Shock testing
The test where acheived by two independant laboratories : one in Switzerland : the Neuchatel Observatory and the LSRH and one in the US : : Approved test laboratories of Chatsworth in California
Omega submit 3 different models of watches for thoses tests : the Speedmaster Professional (cal 861) the Speedmaster "125" (cal 1041) and the Speedsonic (cal tuning fork 1255)
The technical evaluation team determined that, of the chronographs submitted by Bulova for space flight environmental testing, no single watch was exposed to all environmental tests. Also, one watch failed in salt-fog testing and all 3 watches exposed to vacuum testing failed. Accordingly, the Bulova chronographs were determined to be in non-compliance with the specified environmental requirements.
Once again, the Omega Speedmaster professional chronograph was superior to the other chronographs tested. The Speedmaster Professional met all environmental requirements, had the highest technical score, and was offered at the lowest price. Therefore, the Omega was accepted for procurement. The watch was offered to NASA at the cost of $0.01 per watch. NASA bought a serie of 56 watches after thoses tests
The 3 Omega models presented to the 1978 qualification :
The Speedmaster professional
The Speedmaster "125"
The Speedmaster "Speedsonic"
Source:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f45/omega-speedmaster-nasa-132.html
In reply to Found this wonder bit on by mybulova_admin
Fascinating. I may be wrong about this, but to get properly suited up, you need help, and didn't this mean one guy stayed inside the LEM at all times? That would mean that if they were doing any chronograph measured time tests, the chrono would have to be activated by the guy sending the man out the door. I agree it would be impossible to operate a chronograph with those gloves on while doing any kind of EVA.
Good stuff, and I find it bizarre that despite the Speedmaster gaining 21 minutes during the decompression test, and losing 15 in the acceleration test, it was deemed 'satisfactory'? Better than the others, but still....
edit: The crew of the LEM was two. Apparently they had enough room inside to suit up individually, and could do this unassisted. I didn't know it was flown standing up, as there were no seats. 60 cubic metres is the inside volume.
Cross thread post on collectspace.com
In reply to WOW! So that's it! A Chrono C by Reverend Rob
Speculation.
The Chrono 'C' assuption at collectspace.com is based on information put forth in this thread.
"However, I have talked to several well-versed Bulova watch experts who have concluded that this watch, known as the 'Chrono C' is by default the likely one that Dave Scott used on the moon.
The reason being is Bulova in 1970-71 did not have many chronograph wrist watches in their line — the Accutron at the time was still their most popular line, and there was never a "chronograph" Accutron made.
This particular model is a "triple register" (i.e. three sub dials) just like the Speedmaster and was the only one in their line at the time (and like the Speedmaster it used a non-glass Hexalite/plastic crystal). The only other chronos in their catalog in this period were two-register "Deep Sea" diver type watches. "
The truth is "at that time" We don't really know how many Chronographs were being manufactured by Bulova, in fact if there's a 'C' then there ultimately has to be an 'A' and a 'B', possibly a 'D', 'E' ect.
FACT: There is no hard evidence to indicate the Bulova Chronograph was the 'C'.
The Watch We currently know as the 'Bullhead' being a more likely candidate based upon the Crown and Pusher positioning.
FACT: the Bullhead is not cased in a 43mm round case.
Whilst I agree that we have absolutely no hard evidence, when has that stopped us from putting forth our best guess based on the information we have and the years of experience in collecting and IDing vintage Bulova watches.
AT THIS PRESENT TIME....there is no other 'known' 1970/71 Bulova Chronograph other than the Chrono "C" that resembles the watch in question.
Mark please stop always being so negative and look at the positive and possibilities.
I/we are not saying it is 100% the Chronograph "C", I/we are simply saying that at this time it's the most likely of candidates, fitting the description.
In reply to FACT: the Bullhead is not by mybulova_admin
No negativity here Stephen, merely commenting with a err of caution.
The Chronograph 'C' has already been publicly acknowleged as the Chrono worn on the Lunar surface for all of the World to see. This information is shown to be incorrect as the image displayed below of the actual Watch clearly shows.
We should all know by now that if there is a 'C' variant of any Bulova Watch model there will undoubtably be at the very least an 'A' and a 'B' variant to preceed, ad or no ad.
As I stated before, I don't see it being the Automatic, it was still very new and requires quite a bit of movement to stay wound. Has this really been a cyclic event? We said something based on what they said and now they are saying something based on what we said?
Larry is going to post some pics after getting permission from Scott.
Update to this post from Collectspace.com
*********************************************
NASA of crew personal equipment for Apollo.
http://history.nasa.gov/afj/aoh/aoh-v1-2-12-crew.pdf
Page 22 or 2.12-20 in the document.
Quote: Chronograph with watchband - "Accutron Astronaut" watch featuring sweep second hand, stopwatch control and changeable time zone dial
*********************************************
I find this very interesting as there is no such beast....is there? Certainly not from our limited knowledge.
The interesting part is that is was an Accutron Chronograph with stopwatch function.....did such a watch exist back in 1968/69?
So far we haven't come across such a watch.
It is both my great honour and privilege to finally put closure to the belief that a Bulova Chronograph wristwatch was indeed used on the surface of the moon during the Apollo 15 mission, worn by Commander Dave Scott.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Scott
I recently sent Mr Lawrence McGlynn an email asking him to forward it on to Mr Scott. In that email I introduced myself and the myBulova.com community, and made mention the important work we are doing to recapture the history of this great American watch company. My email to Commander Scott requested permission for Mr McGlynn to publicly release the photos of the watch to be shown here on myBulova.com.
A week or so later I received a reply from Mr McGlynn advising that Commander Scott had read my email and as a result agreed to the release of a number of photos, confirming the fact that it was indeed a Bulova watch he wore on the surface of the moon during the Apollo 15 mission.
The following photo is courtesy of Mr McGlynn and Dave Scott, which I'm delighted to present here for the first time ever on myBulova.com.
I would like to add a big thank you to both of these gentleman for allowing this information to be finally made public and to further add yet another amazing facet to Bulova's incredible long history, one that previously was only speculation.
I present to you the Bulova 'Moon' watch.
Note the time in this original photo: 11:15:33
In reply to It is both my great honour by mybulova_admin
In reply to Wow - so there you are - a by astronut
Wow, I am in awe on this watch ( and of course the myBulova scoop ). I grew up in the 60's and followed the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs closer than my favorite baseball team. This is an amazing piece of WORLD history. Thank you you Commander Scott and Mr McGlynn - can we have MORE photos!!??
The Speedmaster made its debut in 1957, a design by Claude Baillod, with a 321 manual column wheel chronograph movt. The 321 ebauche was designed and executed by Lemania, which Omega owned at the time, in 1942.
The 7736 by Valjoux is what we find in the Chrono C, and is very likely what is in the watch flown to the moon also. This was a rebranding of the famous cam switched Venus 188. Venus folded in 1966, and Valjoux acquired the company and made versions of the 188 until 1973. I don't know who designed the case for the Chrono C, or the watch pictured above, it would be interesting to find out.
IMO the models named 'Deep Sea' will not be the same as those named simply 'Chronograph'.
We will eventually see:
'DEEP SEA CHRONOGRAPH' "A", 'DEEP SEA CHRONOGRAPH' "B", 'DEEP SEA CHRONOGRAPH' "C" ect.
and
'CHRONOGRAPH' "A", 'CHRONOGRAPH' "B", 'CHRONOGRAPH' "C" ect.
In reply to IMO the models named 'Deep by FifthAvenueRes…
Commander Scotts' watch was made after the "C" was released, so can't be the "A".
That serial no. 88501/01 would appear to be a prototype number, as bulova watches have a five number model no. followed by a single number followed by a letter, either a "Y" for yellow, or "W" for white, as below in the childishly orange-ringed model numbers!
It looks like Commander Scott's was not the first Bulova wrist watch in space...
...yet this photo taken just before his flight in February 1962 shows him wearing a Heuer stopwatch held by elastic bands.
Maybe the above article was just clever marketing by Bulova, as Accutron clocks were definitely used.
Here is the part of the eva2 transcript that shows all pertinent information regarding the Bulova moon watch.
Please note, the below is not a link. It is the only way I can paste info on mybulova at this time.
Bob.
http://142:14:22 Scott: "Verify cabin at 3.5." Okay, cabin's at 3.5. Suit circuit's locked up at about 4.4. My PGA is coming through 5 and decaying. And let's slip on a watch. [Dave may have had his watch hanging from the instrument panel and, in any event, he is now putting it on and is probably starting the stopwatch function.]
[Scott, from a 1996 letter - "I do not recall ever having looked at my watch after egress. In the cabin after EVA-2, I noticed that the crystal of my Omega had popped off sometime during the EVA. Therefore, on EVA-3, I used my backup watch (which was) of a similar type. It worked just fine during the even higher temperatures of EVA-3."] [In Dave's 1996 letter to me, he said that the back-up watch was a Waltham. After further researching the issue for an article on watches, Dave wrote in early 2014, "Frankly, back in 1996 I just made a mistake -- it was a Bulova, not a Waltham. When you asked in '96, things were a bit hazy after 25 years, and I hadn't fully researched many of the ancillary parts of the mission. However, more things are coming into focus these days as more people are researching Apollo."
[Ken Glover has provided a video frame frame EVA-3, showing the watch Dave was wearing at that time. See, also, AS15-88-11863.]
Earlier this year I was lucky enough to travel across America with my family. Part of the great journey was a visit to the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. During that visit I found myself standing in front of the very suit featured above, that of Commander Dave scott.
